This is not the blog I should be writing.
But something has riled me. It makes me angry and sad at the same time. I am fed up with this - we've got it so tough, the church doesn't understand us, it need's to grow a pair, drink bear and have a fight.
So quick reality check.
1.) If you have a penis you're a man. Stop trying to figure out what that means and how to prove it - you don't need to. What you need to figure out is who Jesus is and how you can best serve him and love him.
2.) The church is still run overwhelmingly run by men (even in churches that believe in women in leadership) so if you don't like it don't blame it on women, they're not the one's with much power in this situation.
3.) Please develop a theology of personhood before developing a theology of gender (and remember there is the possibility gender is an oppressive practice)
4.) There are people dying spiritually and physically, there is oppression, greed and violence everywhere, Jesus is coming back and there just isn't time for you to have a long search for your sense of maleness.
5.) If you feel personally dissempowerd as a man please check who those oppressing you and 'lording it over you' are before automatically assuming them to be women - they may be but more likely they are other men, patriarchy is not great for most men either.
6.) You are not from Mars nor am I from Venus we are both from earth, hewn from the very same stuff.
I believe Men and Women do indeed experience the world differently because we are forced into different boxes. But the response is not to claim the boxes are great and ask why the other person is asking us to sit in their box. The response is to step out of our boxes and into the fullness of life in Christ - which he offers, the same to all humanity because we are human.
But something has riled me. It makes me angry and sad at the same time. I am fed up with this - we've got it so tough, the church doesn't understand us, it need's to grow a pair, drink bear and have a fight.
So quick reality check.
1.) If you have a penis you're a man. Stop trying to figure out what that means and how to prove it - you don't need to. What you need to figure out is who Jesus is and how you can best serve him and love him.
2.) The church is still run overwhelmingly run by men (even in churches that believe in women in leadership) so if you don't like it don't blame it on women, they're not the one's with much power in this situation.
3.) Please develop a theology of personhood before developing a theology of gender (and remember there is the possibility gender is an oppressive practice)
4.) There are people dying spiritually and physically, there is oppression, greed and violence everywhere, Jesus is coming back and there just isn't time for you to have a long search for your sense of maleness.
5.) If you feel personally dissempowerd as a man please check who those oppressing you and 'lording it over you' are before automatically assuming them to be women - they may be but more likely they are other men, patriarchy is not great for most men either.
6.) You are not from Mars nor am I from Venus we are both from earth, hewn from the very same stuff.
I believe Men and Women do indeed experience the world differently because we are forced into different boxes. But the response is not to claim the boxes are great and ask why the other person is asking us to sit in their box. The response is to step out of our boxes and into the fullness of life in Christ - which he offers, the same to all humanity because we are human.
A couple of quick thoughts... I know some men who struggle with what they perceive as a 'feminine' church and other men who have no issue with it. I do, however, know an awful lot of non Christian guys who find certain language and phrases used in the church strange and somewhat homoerotic ('Your name is like honey on my lips' comes to mind. True, but evangelistically nightmarish).
ReplyDeleteI also know a large number of women who struggle with the gender exclusive language in songs and some Bible translations.
The issue isn't men vs women, infact I don't think it ever has been. Organisations such as CVM are focussed primarily on evangelism and discipleship within a specific sphere. I do not see an issue with that. Their aim doesn't seem to be to make the whole church more 'manly' (though for some men this may be an issue due to how uncomfortable they feel) but rather to reach out to a group that they, and many others, feel has been marginalised somewhat in evangelistic efforts and discipleship programs in this country. For that I commend them, just as I commend the lobby calling for female bishops and groups reaching out to women.
Or should we discount gender all together and assume a sort of androgenous outreach/discipleship? (Genuine question BTW)
Many men I know would not feel comfortable discussing certain issues with women and vice versa. That isn't to say the issues aren't the same or similar though.
Anyway, hope you get what I've said =]
Ben
I would also suggest that equality does not mean sameness. Gender, whether we like it or not, still exists. Spiritually? Arguably not. Physically? Definitely. Emotionally? I think so. Evangelistically? To some extent.
ReplyDeleteHow do we implement such androgenous discipleship that you appear to be suggesting (forgive me if you're not!)? If one's identity is found in Christ then you are right, it is neither for you nor Mark Driscoll to say what that identity should be. However Jesus works through many mediums: UFC, coffee mornings, flags in church, Dungeons and Dragons, death metal... (and I know men and women into all of those, including m, except flags. I hate flags.)
So I suppose we agree to an extent? Or do we... It's late, I'm tired and am engrossed in Battlestar Galactica...
Ben Sorry for some reason this ended up in the spam and I've just found it. I'm not sure we do disagree.
DeleteJust to clarify does not exist physically. Gender is by definition a social construct if your talking about anatomical differences your talking about sex not gender.
I totally appreciate the need for single gender ministry and outreach but not because we are created very very different but because the world treats us very differently and we therefore have different hurts and needs (we also have overwhelming amounts of stuff in common and every person is unique). But single gender ministry should be about brining us all closer to our common humanity in Christ not further apart.
I agree with a lot of this post! I have been toying with this idea that maybe God is calling us to deal with this weird masculinity/femininity of the church debate as a way to make us aware of each other's brokenness. Not only are we being called to recognize the oppression of women because of power hierarchies, but we are also being called to recognize the ways men are "kept in their place" by the hegemony of patriarchy and its power hierarchies WITHIN THEIR OWN GENDER. You allude to this in this piece, so I think we're on the same wavelength here. I get what the commenter above is saying about "feminized language" being alienating to some men, but I highly doubt there are any women behind the men who write worship songs goading them on to be girly - last time I checked, "Your name is honey on my lips" is Scripture, and if men in the church find SCRIPTURE embarrassing...I think we have bigger issues, like an overemphasis on "evangelism" without the equally important practice of explaining things (discipleship).
ReplyDeleteIs the Church too feminised?
ReplyDeleteJenny,
You know that I am very much for women, but you and I disagree when it comes to gender issues. I very much believe that there are differences between men and women.
It is true. By and large, most of the local church leaders tend to be male, but churches nevertheless tend be kept afloat by women, for they are in the majority.
Anyway, let us look at this issue.
1 Corinthians 11:11-12: However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
The important thing to note here is that in order for the church to grow properly we need each other. We need to be inter-dependent, but more importantly yet, we need to be dependent on the Lord.
However, having said that…
• Why are there so few men in the church?
• Why do women respond to the gospel more readily than the men?
• Could what we are communicating in our gospel presentations have repercussions on whether they choose to believe or not?
• Have our gospel presentations tended to be addressing people’s felt needs rather than their real needs?
It is a generalisation, but women will more readily admit to having some felt needs that NEED TO BE MET than men. Therefore…
• Wouldn’t a gospel presentation that addressed felt needs leave men feeling unconvinced that they should respond in faith to an invitation that says that they ought to “turn to Jesus, and he will make [whatever the problem may be] go away, so that they will no longer feel anxious, lonely, worried, afraid, depressed or lacking in ability in some way or another, but instead will be able to overcome and experience love, joy, peace – in essence experience life in all of its fullness (John 10:10)”?
Even if men were to respond to any such invitations and start coming to church, if they are then not given something challenging to do - some kind of cause; something bigger than themselves - they will tend to lose interest and will not want to continue attending once those felt needs have been met. Moreover, if they feel that their felt needs are not met, they will not keep on attending. They would do this because they came to the conclusion that the gospel message that they heard must not be true for what they experienced did not match up with what they were told would happen.
Though the above is also true for women, women will by and large still come to church because they are not generally as motivated by causes as the men. What motivate them are the relationships that they are able to have with other women (people) in the church. All of this is a generalisation, but when women get together they will be content in chatting about all kinds of things, but when men get together they will want to do something together.
With the above in mind, have a look at the below two passages of Scripture for they will clarify what I have just addressed. The two passages reveal two interactions that Jesus had with two different people:
• The Samaritan woman at the well
• Simon Peter in his fishing boat.
Please note the similarities between the two accounts and also the differences that I have just mentioned.. There are 4 things to note about Jesus’ life that is important for us with regard to reaching out to people, so that they may be added to the Church.
Please read the next one for continuation/
Is the Church too feminised? – part 2:
ReplyDelete1) Jesus went to where the people were, he didn’t wait for them to come to him. We must be willing to go to where they are – in their life contexts, and not expect them to come to us.
- Peter: the fishing boat – context is work related
- Woman at the well: though a woman’s job was to collect water – the context would nevertheless have been one of relationship for the women – in her case a lack thereof, due to the fact she went when no other woman did – at the middle of the day, as opposed to early in the morning or after sunset. When it was hot was an impractical time to fetch water.
2) He met their real needs and not their felt needs. Their real needs were different, and I would argue that they generally – there are exceptions – typify what men and women are like.
Peter: purpose: fisher of men – something bigger than his normal fishing activities.
Woman at the well: relationships – Her real need was that she was isolated / socially ostracised and not her “need” for water. We tend to focus on meeting their felt needs first before trying to address their real needs.
3) He was credible. In other words, he was a man of integrity. His talk and his walk were one and the same. His life spoke volumes, and not just what he said.
4) Because he was credible, when he did speak, those people, who had ‘ears to hear’, listened to what he had to say and as a consequence believed and followed him.
- Peter followed him because his miraculous catch spoke volumes.
- The woman at the well believed because he knew who she was and still accepted her.
The point is more specifically this:
It was only after Jesus showed Peter his miraculous power that he (Peter) was persuaded of how sinful he was. It was then that he left his nets and followed him to learn how to become a fisher of men (the quest bigger than himself = the real need which was originally given to Adam - namely to fill the earth with people in right relationship with God and to subdue that which needed to be subdued - namely the animals e.g. serpent
The context is that men (women too though) need to be able to see why they are on this planet - namely for God - and that we need to continue carrying out his original mandate, but before we are able to carry it out, we first need to be reconciled to the Father. I would suggest that men , in order for them to want to be reconciled to God, need to understand that by living out their lives for their own selfish ends, they are not living their lives as God had intended for them to live them out, and that is the reason why Jesus died for them (Isaiah 53:6). I would suggest that by emphasising their need to put their relationship with God right, though it is undoubtedly true, as how their lives will begin to have more meaning, will not be the way forward for most men. With women, I would also suggest, that will more likely be persuasive enough. for relationships are what motivates them. Once they fall in love with the person of Jesus, they make the most devoted of followers who will get involved in his work as his servants.
Continuation in part 3.
Is the Church too feminised? – part 3:
ReplyDeleteYou see, Jesus modelled what a good Jewish man was supposed to do. He was only concerned about completing the work that the Father had given him to do. It's true; the original mandate was not only given to Adam. It was also given to Eve. The difference is that women are generally motivated into activity through their relationships, whilst men are generally motivated into activity through buying into a cause that is bigger than themselves, which they are challenged to carry out, with certain tasks that will bring about the desired result, and which often times demands some kind of problem solving.
Both men and women are capable of doing the same things, but if there is a problem that is affecting them both, most women will invariably want to talk about how it is affecting them, whilst the men will generally be more concerned about wanting to find a solution to the problem, so that whatever is wrong may put right. I am sure that you are aware of this. This is a typical problem in most marriages. The wife wants her husband merely to listen to her talk about how the kids drove her nuts or how the fact that the washing machine broke down when it did made her feel all hot and bothered. He will ask questions in order to figure out exactly what the problem is and will then want to get on with fixing it. He will not naturally think about empathising with her, but will invariably call the kids to a family meeting or will go and find the tool box or the phone to call for somebody to come and take a look at the washing machine, if his wife hadn’t already done that. (Very stereotypical, I know and not very much like my relationship to Kasia, for the opposite is more likely to be the case, especially with regard to the tool box.)
I hope that you understood my point. No doubt you will have a rebuttal. I look forward to reading it.
This is not about oppression. You completely miss the point. Many American men have no close friends, no emotional outlets, have father issues, anger issues, no one they can turn to in the event of a crisis. YES, the church is feminized because it does not provide a "brotherhood" in the same sense that it provides a "sisterhood". Most churches are filled with women and children. There is often little to minister to the spiritual, emotional, and social needs of men. We are left to be lone wolves facing life's challenges all alone. Inevitably, this kind of pressure needs an outlet. Sadly, some men choose inappropriate ways to express their frustrations. And then, after they've done too much and crossed the line too often, someone comes, takes them away, throws away the key. There, they will be hurt even more
ReplyDelete