I recently started to listen to a discussion in which Christian women explained to men "What women want". I had to stop when a highly successful talent women told the eager audience not to be afraid of the strong (can't remember the adjective exactly could have been successful or independent or something) women myth, as capable women where eager and willing to submit and be lead. This was a recording from a church I have great respect for but at this point I had to turn it off - this is not a good habit of mine I know but I had it on as background to the washing up and getting irate and angry generally does not assist the process of cleaning.
I had already been riled by the comment that 'not even Freud' after all his years of study had worked out 'what women want'. This is plain and simply because he did not listen to what they where saying and decided it was a mass hallucination. Anyway there is no one answer to that question because there are several billion women on the planet and they do not all have the same desires. Simplest way to know what a women wants: ask her, and listen to the answer.
Anyway it reminded me again of something I have perceived and find perplexing; that so many of the Christians and churches in this country, which are egalitarian in their practice of Church leadership, still assume hierarchy in marriage almost unquestioningly. It's the unquestioned and unexamined nature that concerns me. Many an Egalitarian church I have been to will regularly have preaches about women's equal capacity to lead and ministry and responsibility being based on individuals gifting and spiritual maturity and not gender. Members of Churches will know and be able to articulate their churches position.
But what about a churches or even Christians view of Marriage and gender hierarchy? While Our complementarian brothers and sisters have very clear teachings on the roles of men and women in the church and home I am not sure Egalitarian churches feel quiet as confident in what they actually believe and I detect a certain nervousness in broaching the subject. Not that there is not good egalitarian exegesis and discussion about relevant passages and their meaning. See here: http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/i-believe-male-headship and here http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/marriage-family-and-relationships.
But somehow many churches and Christians, while having challenged the understanding of the role of women in churches, stop short of examining how that applies in marriage.
Even more than that I have often heard people say things in discussion about a whole range of subjects which presupposes that those listening will have a hierarchical view of marriage, that this is a given and does not have to be justified or spelled out, there is just an underlying assumption that this is the Christian view. This is obviously expected when it occurs in churches that teach hierarchy but I am amazed how common it is in egalitarian churches and how rarely it is challenged.
This coupled with a resurgence, both inside and outside the church, of a deterministic view of gender and sexuality makes me concerned that many Christian marriages are limited in what they can achieve for the kingdom because each person is trying to squeeze themselves into a mould that is not given of God and therefore limiting them and how fully they can give themselves to each other and how fully they as a married unit can give themselves to the service of God.
I know many will disagree with that last sentiment especially those who assert that there are different roles and authorities within marriage. The main concern I am raising here is my perception that there is a clear lack of teaching and debate on this issue within an egalitarian framework, that people are afraid to address it and in consequence many people are unsure where they stand.
If we have an Egalitarian view of church leadership but a hierarchical view of marriage what happens when a women is her husbands church leader? What are the implications for raising up new leaders if women are not taking full responsibility in their family decision making. What are the implications for men learning from women in the church if they take authority over their own wives on the basis of their gender? What are the implications for our young people growing up in abusive homes of not directly preaching about the mutuality and respect due in marriage? What are the implications for single people who are seeking to get married and
are concerned about finding someone they can lead/be lead by?
Anyway perhaps its just me. I would be very interested to know what others experience is? Is this preached about? Do you find people to be presumptive about what your view on this may be? Do you hear these views being challenged? If anyone reads this do let me know your thoughts. Otherwise it was a nice exercise in talking to myself!
I had already been riled by the comment that 'not even Freud' after all his years of study had worked out 'what women want'. This is plain and simply because he did not listen to what they where saying and decided it was a mass hallucination. Anyway there is no one answer to that question because there are several billion women on the planet and they do not all have the same desires. Simplest way to know what a women wants: ask her, and listen to the answer.
Anyway it reminded me again of something I have perceived and find perplexing; that so many of the Christians and churches in this country, which are egalitarian in their practice of Church leadership, still assume hierarchy in marriage almost unquestioningly. It's the unquestioned and unexamined nature that concerns me. Many an Egalitarian church I have been to will regularly have preaches about women's equal capacity to lead and ministry and responsibility being based on individuals gifting and spiritual maturity and not gender. Members of Churches will know and be able to articulate their churches position.
But what about a churches or even Christians view of Marriage and gender hierarchy? While Our complementarian brothers and sisters have very clear teachings on the roles of men and women in the church and home I am not sure Egalitarian churches feel quiet as confident in what they actually believe and I detect a certain nervousness in broaching the subject. Not that there is not good egalitarian exegesis and discussion about relevant passages and their meaning. See here: http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/i-believe-male-headship and here http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/marriage-family-and-relationships.
But somehow many churches and Christians, while having challenged the understanding of the role of women in churches, stop short of examining how that applies in marriage.
Even more than that I have often heard people say things in discussion about a whole range of subjects which presupposes that those listening will have a hierarchical view of marriage, that this is a given and does not have to be justified or spelled out, there is just an underlying assumption that this is the Christian view. This is obviously expected when it occurs in churches that teach hierarchy but I am amazed how common it is in egalitarian churches and how rarely it is challenged.
This coupled with a resurgence, both inside and outside the church, of a deterministic view of gender and sexuality makes me concerned that many Christian marriages are limited in what they can achieve for the kingdom because each person is trying to squeeze themselves into a mould that is not given of God and therefore limiting them and how fully they can give themselves to each other and how fully they as a married unit can give themselves to the service of God.
I know many will disagree with that last sentiment especially those who assert that there are different roles and authorities within marriage. The main concern I am raising here is my perception that there is a clear lack of teaching and debate on this issue within an egalitarian framework, that people are afraid to address it and in consequence many people are unsure where they stand.
If we have an Egalitarian view of church leadership but a hierarchical view of marriage what happens when a women is her husbands church leader? What are the implications for raising up new leaders if women are not taking full responsibility in their family decision making. What are the implications for men learning from women in the church if they take authority over their own wives on the basis of their gender? What are the implications for our young people growing up in abusive homes of not directly preaching about the mutuality and respect due in marriage? What are the implications for single people who are seeking to get married and
are concerned about finding someone they can lead/be lead by?
Anyway perhaps its just me. I would be very interested to know what others experience is? Is this preached about? Do you find people to be presumptive about what your view on this may be? Do you hear these views being challenged? If anyone reads this do let me know your thoughts. Otherwise it was a nice exercise in talking to myself!
Hi Jen,
ReplyDeleteYou'll be pleased to know you aren't just talking to yourself - there is at least one person listening!
Despite all my preconceived ideas, I am beginning to think that what you say makes a lot of sense. There is an awful lot of double-think about regarding the place of women. I should know cos I'm pretty schizophrenic in this area myself. It's good to be challenged.
I followed your links to the Bilezikian + Haddad articles on headship and Johnson on submission. All well argued stuff. Lots of food for thought.
As you said - it's the sort of thing I've never actually heard a sermon about - at most its been discussed in women's groups. Which rather defeats the object!
What resonated with me most were Johnson's comments on cultural expectations and how Paul was a man of his time eager not to hinder the spread of the gospel by being unnecessarily socially offensive. Johnson's point was that we are doing exactly that by denying the advances of our day and keeping Christian women down in a world that has moved on. He's right - why do we Christians make life unnecessarily difficult for ourselves!
I also agree with him that `deference´ is a much less loaded word than submission and that it applies to both women and men.
I think the Bible is very wise to tell us we must work out our own submission upps - salvation with fear and trembling. There's no way one book can answer all the practical problems involved in nurture, love and mutual support. Once we've got the main guidelines and with the Holy Spirit's help each
couple figures it out for themselves.That's what makes marriage and church life both difficult and exciting
We need those guidelines. Thanks for making me think! Elaine
Thanks Elaine,
ReplyDeleteSo exciting to have my first comment! I agree that "Once we've got the main guidelines and with the Holy Spirit's help each couple figures it out for themselves". It's just that people find that really hard to hear they think it means I'm saying women shouldn't be like X they should be like Y. Actually I'm saying stop telling women what they should be like so they can find the space as individuals to decide/ discover who they are.
Anyway your three sons are doing the washing up at minute! So can I just take this moment to say what amazing men you've raised!
Loads of love
Jenny
P.S. I'm not saying they're amazing because they are doing the washing up, but just because they are!
Love this post, and I agree that there needs to be a lot more thought and teaching about what it means to say that the husband is the head of the wife - because it doesn't have to mean that he is somehow 'the boss'. Why on earth do people think that marriage needs to be a hierarchical relationship with one person 'in authority' over the other? I agree with you that women need to take responsibility and need to be fully mature adults. The view that says the man should have 'the final say' infantilises women and keeps us immature. And it doesn't work to say that we are equal partners in marriage but that the husband is the 'head', because that's not equal!
ReplyDeleteCan I put link to your blog on the Sophia Network site?
Clearly I'm not great at this regular bloging thing!Jenny yes please do link to my blog and I will endeavour to write more often!
DeleteHi Jen - just found your site thro a link on "mums.Kids.Jesus"! I asked Jo, do you know this Jen?? About this first blog of yours, it is great. Having been married for 42 years, I can say that my husbnd's teaching on submission works - ie: to submit means to get under the mission of.... that is to support and encourage and strengthen each other in whatever God gives us to do!! Submission does NOT mean as some would say - to bow down under someone else's will. It is freeing and wonderful!!
ReplyDeleteHello Caroline, I guess you got an answer to do you know this Jen. Tis me. 42 years? Wow! I really like the idea of coming under each others mission, powerful way of thinking about mutual submission especially in contexts where your both trying to submit to The mission.
ReplyDeleteHope you and yours are all well.
Much love.
Jen
Thanks for engaging the complexity of the reality of all these moving parts and places. I completely agree with Jenny's comment about the need for us to grow up as women. There is a tempting and subtly destructive comfort in "maidenhood" that is often re-inforced by the church and accepted by us... creating real loss for us all!
ReplyDelete